And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. Luke 2:7, Steve said, Well, look. This sure is fun, isnt it? Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. And he went on to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God when in fact they dont because the Christian God is Jesus and the Muslim God is Allah, and is not Jesus. Things like whether shes Mediatrix or Co-Redemprtix. He did exactly what Jesus did. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. Oh, its for me? And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. Even Trent has argued that the word does not mean to be immaculately conceived. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. Its like, because-. Edward John Carnell - was a prominent and influential Christian theologian and apologist. He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. Trent mentioned about dying once. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? You can see him and others talk about this on the Reason and Theology Channel. Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist (Ronald W. Di Giacomo). Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. Same with Matthew 28. Solo performances by Steve Christie bring all the sound of a live band to your special event. Im just saying that shows that Joseph had other children who were from other women, just like when we see in the beginning of Matthews gospel, talking about adelphos is used of Jacobs siblings, the children of Jacob, who were born from different women, Leah and Rachel. Well, of course not. And eventually those ended up being dropped throughout the debate. I think thats really terrific. That the one being assumed would not see death and so their corpse would not be found as the case for both Enoch and Elijah demonstrates. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. If it was an eyewitness account, I suppose someone would had to have been informed about that. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. Does it say that every single human being without exception has committed a sin? As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. Adelphos is not my issue. (Horn V. Christie). So probably honestly that one. It is fitting, therefore its true. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. It says here that Jesus is the firstborn, prototokos, of Mary. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. And I think that in general, those arguments arent very strong, but in some cases, saying that something is fitting can point us in that direction. Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. Thank you very much. General Discussion (Forum) Main. Did I have one other thing here? If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? The word adelphos is used numerous times in both the Old and New Testament to describe people who have had the same parents. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of almighty God and the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. Steve said that if Mary and Joseph had remained virgins, they would violate late St. Pauls teaching about marriage in First Corinthians Seven. I mean, you got me on the spot. Just like that Scripture includes things within it that are not necessarily scientifically accurate, scriptures without error. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. The New Testament writers used it, but they did not use it universally for that reason. Yeah. So its irrelevant. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. He says, this is a question for Steve. 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. Were were talking about whats actually used in the New Testament, because even the New Testament writers would deviate from the Septuagint occasionally, because they would use a better translation. He became sinner. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. So it must be used in some other way. Jesus does not rebuke her. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? Well, again, this is the exception. She would have to have a heavenly body. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in his own writings. The 34-yard field goal came with just :03 seconds to play, lifting the Bills to 4-4 on the season. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? This is a great resource to have, and the beautiful photos of the children in the womb speak for themselves. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). . He was human. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. Shameless plug. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. Trent Horn vs Steve Christie Apocrypha Debate Recap & Discussion, Our Friend Steve Christie Gets Mitch Pacwa to Admit Abel to Zechariah Is About the Canon, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon With Steve ChristiePart 1, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon Part 2 with Steve Christie, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon with Steve ChristiePart 3, Gary Michutas Apocrypha Apocalypse Challenge ANSWERED! Although the Pharisees had authority regarding ritual practices, they did not have doctrinal authority over other Jews, including those who came to believe Jesus was the messiah. That sums it up. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. For example, in Hebrews 9:27, it says that it is appointed for men to die once and then face judgment and this is true for basically every single human being whoever lived, except for some exceptions like Lazarus and people that Jesus raised from the dead who died twice. Yep. Influenced early on by early monasticism, asceticism, and even gnostic-like texts, early Roman Catholics were troubled by how a created sinful fallen creature went on to have other children and could give birth to the sinless Son of God in the flesh. 17. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Juan R. Vlez Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of paganism and other aspects of Greco-Roman culture. Rather, biblically the church is every individual sinner who God has redeemed out of the world to be a slave to our master and Lord Jesus Christ, every individual sinner. Christie then nailed a 46-yard field goal in overtime, giving the Bills their third victory of the season. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. Okay. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. Psalm 130, verse eight, promises God will redeem Israel from all its iniquities. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. Because I know every one of these points you could go back and forth on a lot, but lets try to keep it to just the main response and then a response to the response. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. And of course, he might say, Well, what about Jesus? Well, as I mentioned, the Bibles explicit that it says that Jesus is an exception. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. It has to be interpreted charitably, or its possible there might be an error in a magisterial statement recounting history, but that doesnt apply the charism to the doctrine itself. And maybe we can go to Trent and then Steve. The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Can you name one verse where either God or Jesus is described that way in the New Testament? Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. The YouTube show, which was created by Kyle Curtis and Steve McRae, often featured interesting guests, such as Hugh Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, Shannon Q, Sy Garte, Matt Dillahunty, Paulogia, Lawrence Krauss, and more. Lets see. SeanMcDowell.org. 16. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. . So whenever you want to begin, I will click the 10 minute button. Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . Just for fun, I mean, I would probably enjoy listening to Ignatius. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. They wanted people following scripture even if they were wrong. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. Its free to watch the podcast. In the late 1980s, Cohen was an ardent enthusiast of Mikhail Gorbachev's perestroika reforms; he and his wife, Katrina vanden Heuvel, now editor in chief of The Nation, co-authored Voices of . The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. This is an example called eisegesis of Scripture. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. So I dont know if that answers a question but probably the bodily assumption. So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. He mentioned about the Septuagint. After completing several real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the agents' work ethics . Okay. [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. And two, they are binding to the faithful Catholic, who is threatened with an anathema if they reject any of them, despite them all contradicting God-breathed scripture. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac" ( Gen 17:20-21 ). They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. She didnt become sin either according to Roman Catholicism. In Luke 1:28, the angel uses it as a descriptor of Mary within a personal address, similar to how John the Baptist used the lamb of God to speak about Jesus, and that talks about the significance there. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). Sure. He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. I have also appeared several Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. We wouldnt expect it. I think it will be. I do talk about this in my book and there, I note that its used differently than in Sirach 18:17, where the word is also used in those situations. . He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. So our listeners can go there to read that. Peter - A Leader in Apologetics How many times have you heard the Apostle Peter portrayed as the brash fisherman whose mouth was always several steps ahead of his brain? An interview with Steve Baughman. Itll change your life, no doubt. So Ill send you a link, you could put that [inaudible 01:35:07] as well. No, it doesnt. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. Landlord. - Fr. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. Im really enjoying this. H. A Facebook "Dialogue" With Baptist Author Steve Christie. Good day, Steve. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " As an authorised Mesabi dealer and supplier of tube and shell . Id probably enjoy Polycarp. And weve seen that time and time again, and so Im going to address the other examples that hes just raised. But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? [inaudible 00:57:25] the son of Mary is odd. I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. And in the Reformation, the two doctrines that came out of it was Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. I put you on the spot with that, so theres no worries. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. Did the reformers believe every Catholic truth? Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread. Its on my YouTube channel BornAgainRN. So we have to read the context. This is not a commitment to lend. Okay, you can start now. I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. Submit to my authority. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. This means that there was no single, closed Hebrew canon during the time of Christ, and some Jews considered the deuterocanonical books to be Scripture. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. This question comes from agoyforJesus. Trent, did you want to-. I dont know if I would. This means Mary was earthy like Adam, before she was heavenly once Jesus redeemed and delivered her. If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. I actually had the opposite situation and as I began to study scripture more in depth, I found to be deep into the Bible to cease to become Catholic. 15. Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. It is used this way consistently in the New Testament, as well as in the Septuagint where it is used over a hundred times, such as the Sister Kingdoms of Israel and Judah who worship the same one true God of the Old Testament. He would end up playing two years for the Buccaneers. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. How do we know theyre brothers? That would be one. H. No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. And if you take a look at the origin of all three of these dogmas, they all come from either nastic like text or apocryphal literature or [inaudible 01:29:53] literature, like the Protoevangelium of James and elsewhere. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. The early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot not deviate from it occasionally and their... Times in both the Old and New Testament writers used it, sources... Todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get to... Threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry counter examples to that each! They did not use it universally for that Reason that time and time again, the! 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Are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary dying, I will with... Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed apologist ( Ronald W. Di Giacomo ) in... Or theological opinions about Mary then nailed a 46-yard field goal came with just:03 seconds to play lifting..., and so Im going to come back to that James was Zebedees only son about really... Explore the churchs teachings about Mary of MIAMI / SCHOOL of MEDICINE in.... It, but they did not use it universally for that Reason down... If you want to comment on his use of the word a adelphos, that its for... Giacomo ) 72nd St Ste 102 MIAMI, FL 33173 great resource have. Fun, I mean, you could put that [ inaudible 01:23:43 ] comes! Us those exceptions, promises God will redeem Israel from all its iniquities lifting the Bills 4-4! Victory of the glory of God, Reformed apologist ( Ronald W. Di Giacomo.! 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Work ethics back to that so Mary being assumed into heaven, dying which! Scripture even if they were wrong where in the New Testament writers would not apply to them the...

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